Interview to Karen Anne Webb, dance critic
30th
September 2005
How did you
start dance criticism?
I got into
it by a combination of a great love for the art and a lot of sheer,
bloody-minded persistence. Except for the little “Dolly Dimple” instruction many
little girls over here receive, I didn’t really start serious dance training
until I was 21 and in college working on a second degree. I took an
introductory ballet technique class to alleviate the stress of studying many
hours a day. Ballet became ballet plus modern, then ballet plus modern plus
jazz. The University had a great arts program that brought in companies like
ABT. I immersed myself there; later, when we moved to New York for my husband
to go to music conservatory, I spent most of my time at places like Lincoln Center immersing myself further.
I had never
thought of trying to break into writing, as I didn’t have a journalism degree,
though I always had a natural facility for it. When we moved to the Salt Lake
City area, there were a number of small arts-oriented newspapers who were
willing to hire the literate but inexperienced. I ended up filling a small but
odd niche as someone who knew a lot about dance and could write intelligently
about it, as most dancers around here don’t write and most writers don’t know
dance. I think a problem with our big newspapers (but I hear this is also true
in New York) is that they don’t truly care if they have someone who knows his
subject well writing about any of the serious arts. On the other hand, I think
people in the know in the arts fields go to the smaller venues if they want
serious feedback on their efforts. But anyway, that’s how I started small,
till I’d built a portfolio and could approach the larger venues.
Who are your
favourite choreographers?
Boy, I have
a number that I’m fond of. Of the previous generation, George Balanchine and
Sir Frederick Ashton head the list, which may seem odd because they were very
different choreographers! Jerome Robbins and Glen Tetley are also big favorites. Ballet West’s artistic director Jonas Kåge has brought in some wonderful work by Billy Forsythe
and Hans van Manen, and I simply adore everything
I’ve ever seen by Jiri Kylian.
In modern dance, I lean a little more toward the old guard like Martha Graham,
Doris Humphrey, and Paul Taylor because of the way they typically make dance an
expression of their music. Many post-modernists I’ve spoken with put in the
music almost as an afterthought, and I think dance loses some of its power when
you do that. (My process when I choreograph tends to involve taking inspiration
from the music.) On the other hand, I’ve seen some great stuff done in silence
or to spoken-word text, and I love the mathematical approach I’ve seen Forsythe
and choreos like Sara Rudner use, so it’s difficult
to generalize. (I know I’m probably slighting somebody here by leaving him or
her out!)
Which male
ballet stars do you particularly admire? And which ballerinas?
I’m dating
myself a little here, but my all-time favorite
dance-goddess-who-could-do-no-wrong was Martine van Hamel. She was just
everything I could ever want to see in a ballerina: womanly and feminine, a
nice technician and a superior dramatic ballerina. You could just feel her soul
dancing whenever she stepped onstage. I have to admit that I’m a little more
dazzled by clean, thrilling technique when it comes to the men. The competition
for women to get into the dance field is, even in this day and age, much worse
than for men, so while you generally expect nice feet and a good line and clean
positions among the women in a company, a man who closes a turn or a double
tour cleanly or who has a good line or a clean, tight fifth position stands out
a little more. So I like great technicians like Ethan Stiefel
and Angel Corella. I was sad to learn that Jonathan
Cope is retiring, as from what I know of his work, he combined elegance and
sterling technique with a wonderful sense of dramatic weight.
Your best
experience as a dance critic.
It’s odd,
but I am probably getting to meet a lot more people writing in a smaller venue
like Salt Lake City (probably because it was easier to make a name for myself
in a less populated area) than I would have as a new kid on the block in New
York. I’m always amazed at how gracious these people I’ve idolized since I was
a child can be. I got the opportunity to interview Ronald Hynd
and to speak briefly with his wife Annette Page, and they got a big kick out of
hearing how I had gone through a phase in childhood where I named all of my
Barbie dolls after Royal Ballet dancers following a performance of the Royal Swan
Lake with Dame Margot Fonteyn and Rudoph Nureyev.
The program became like my Bible. I think my two favorite
interviews, though, have been a recent one with Glen Tetley, whose work I
idolize (we seem to have an abiding respect for Martine van Hamel in common)
and one from a while ago with Cynthia Gregory, who was another one of my idols.
Some years ago, my work stayed with someone who later went to work for the
National Endowment for the Arts and recommended me as a contract researcher for
a big project they did some years ago about how we archive dance in this
country, and that was certainly one of my most memorable jobs ever.
In Italy
there are not rosy prospects about the future of ballet (cutting down of funds,
risk of increasing the retirement age, etc). Are you optimistic or pessimistic
about the future of ballet and dance in your country?
Tough call.
I think artistically the talent is certainly here, and people are producing
some very wonderful work on these little shoestring budgets. Economically, this
is a difficult time. It’s a little like the big newspapers valuing sports and
sensation over literate reporting of the arts: I’m not sure how much our
federal government truly values the serious performing arts. I think dance will
survive because artists (as a broad generalization) produce because they’re
driven to produce, and they will find a way. That way may not be easy: dancers
in the full-time companies around here have, for instance, had their contract
weeks shortened, and a lot of smaller companies survive because their dancers
are committed people who keep day jobs and dance in their spare time. One thing
you have to admit the old Communist regimes had in their favor
was state support of the arts! In a country like ours that is supposedly
enlightened, I think if the government truly wanted to find a way to support
the arts like it was doing 20 years ago, it would. I weep for the day we’ve put
so much money into defense that we find ourselves
living in a country that is no longer worth defending.
Last year
they asked Christopher Wheeldon's opinion about the
ballet into the 21st century. He answered: "I guess modern dance and a lot
of contemporary ballet feels a little soulless, a little cold. It's been
stripped down so much to this angry physicality that it almost feels as if the
poetry is being drained out of dance." And, referring to his Polyphonia: "My aim with Polyphonia
was to […] accentuate the strong physical presence in dance today, but then infuse
it with a little bit of poetry, a little bit of tenderness, a little bit of
human connection." Karen, do you agree with the consideration that today's
ballet is lacking in theatrical qualities?
I’m not
sure I would have put it in quite those terms, as a lot of what is being
produced today (at least, over here) integrates dance and theatre, so in terms
of props and technical production values, it has `theatrical qualities.’ But I
do agree with Wheeldon’s `soulless’ assessment.
Although I think the approach of allowing art to hold the mirror up to life has
validity (and, face it, it can be a cold, soulless world out there depending on
your perspective about where the world is headed these days), for me, the arts
are at their best when they are trying to exalt the human spirit. Too often, I
think the “holding the mirror up to life” thing goes overboard in showing us at
our dismal worst when it might at least be saying, “Are we to let this sorry
state of affairs continue?” I think an older piece like Joos’
“The Green Table” or even Christopher Bruce’s more recent “Ghost Dances” work
because there’s a poignancy to them. Something about them makes you say,
“There’s terrible injustice in war now let’s go make things better” rather
than, “Oh, my God, that was dismal. I think I’ll go kill myself because there’s
nothing to be done.”
We are all
a product of our times, so I think as the world grows colder and crazier, it
becomes easier for an artist to let that influence his work unless he has a
very firm philosophy about the role of the arts in life. But I think artists of
any sort have always been visionaries, and I think the best art has always been
produced by people who understand what a tremendous impact the arts (especially
dance and music) can have on a person’s psyche. You can choose to use your art
to ennoble or to debase, and I think some of the soullessness or lack of human
connection Wheeldon is suggesting here (and I agree
completely that it exists) stems from artists who have not made the conscious
choice either to exalt the human spirit or to provoke noble sentiments like
wanting to right the injustices a piece describes. For me, that’s the
difference between a “Ghost Dances” and something like Doug Varrone’s
“Smashed Landscapes.”
As a dance
critic, are you more interested in pure or narrative dance? Are you for the new
and different or for the old and classical?
In a word,
yes. Seriously, I love the old classics, but I think an art that stifles new
work is setting itself up for extinction. As I’ve described above, I see art as
having an important mission when it comes to uplifting the human spirit. But
there are a lot of ways to do that. The beauty and technical brilliance of an
old Petipa warhorse like Don Quixote has one
sort of vitality. The cleverness and mathematics of something like Forsythe’s
“In the Middle, Somewhat Elevated” has another. Balanchine’s completely
abstract musical interpretations had yet another, as did Ashton’s dramatic
ballets. There’s a very small company out here that I love called Dr. Schaeffer
and Mr. Stern that deals almost exclusively in what some call “new vaudeville”
that are generally very funny and campy but have also set Barber’s “Adagio for
Strings” as a serious piece (they also do an elementary-aged stage show called
“Two Guys Dancing About Math” that uses choreographic concepts to teach math to
children). I think the connecting thread in all this is that sense of vibrance or vitality that leads to one feeling uplifted or
edified or like he’s participated in something beautiful. Also, I know that
movement that looks more random or aimless is popular right now; I’m still of
the opinion that works of art should take you on a journey of some sort,
although that journey can take many different forms. I think the one thing we
need to guard against as an artistic community, though, is doing something new
and different for the sake of iconoclasm and nothing else. As in life, I feel
like we shouldn’t be tearing things down for fun, but certainly should be
challenging them if we have something better to offer.
What do you
think of reinterpretations of the classical ballets? Just a pair of examples,
but you can add others: Coralli‑Perrot's and
Mats Ek's Giselle; Roland Petit's
and Amedeo Amodio's Carmen.
This is
probably a wimpy answer, but I think it depends entirely on the vision of the
person doing the reinterpretation. I was not fond of the reinterpretation of Swan
Lake that Erik Bruhn did some years ago because for me it was a departure
in all the wrong places. Although I didn’t find his idea of having the Queen
Mother also portray Von Rothbart (or Von Rothbart-ette) intrusive (actually, that was kind of an
interesting idea), the miserable ending and the way he tinkered with the Black
Swan didn’t work for me. Everyone I know who has seen Ek’s
Giselle has been completely swept away by it, and I find the premise
fascinating. I know companies over here are forced to contend with audiences
whose attention spans are not long, but I’ve always thought it would be
interesting to see both a traditional Giselle and something like Ek’s done in one evening (or perhaps on tandem nights as
part of a package with a longer work like The Sleeping Beauty).
Artistically,
I’m very much in favor of innovation, but I
understand that the economic survival of a company can depend on innovative
works being integrated more conservatively than might be artistically
desirable. Over here, the big, traditional classics tend to bring in the
audiences (I’ve heard rep bills are also a tough sell in parts of Europe).
There are crazy people like me who see everything multiple times and find our
souls fed by any dance group making a creative effort, but we’re in the
minority. The bulk of ticket sales (and, unfortunately, the big contributions)
come by and large from people who enjoy dance but are not impassioned about it
or attend either to be seen or as part of a perceived social obligation. I’d
love to see a milieu develop where a company could take artistic chances based
on a need to bring innovation to the community or help its dancers to grow
artistically without worrying that the company would have to fold if the
evening fell flat on its face financially. Something like Ek’s
Giselle would represent a humongous gamble in this area, though the
truly impassioned balletomanes would kill to see it brought here. (This is
overall a very conservative area where the Mormon church has an awful lot of
influence over the popular culture, and I’m trying to envision a statement by
the Church’s General Authorities regarding the use of nudity and the setting of
an asylum!)
Do you agree
with the prima ballerina of the Teatro alla Scala, Gilda Gelati, who thinks that either you do the classics properly
or you totally change them (she was referring to Ek's
splendid Giselle, in particular)?
I’d say
generally I agree, and yet you do have to ask the question, what constitutes
“doing them properly?” Over here, for instance, a lot of companies (including
Ballet West) have trimmed a lot from the third act of Swan Lake on the
theory that the national dances are just fluff that puts the audience to sleep
while they wait for the “Black Swan” pas de deux. I
can see that, but I have to admit two of my favorite
third acts are the Bolshoi’s (my copy of it, at least, adds variations for Von Rothbart and a little entourage of swans and has the fiancees dancing with their own national groups) and the
Royal Ballet’s (don’t know if they’ve switched, but my copy and the way Ive
seen it live has a great pas de quatre done to music
that I think was originally the Grand Pas des Fiancees)
so they effectively add more material. Baryshnikov timmed
his Giselle and his Don Quixote when he directed ABT. There’s
some justification for eliminating the Peasant Pas de Deux
if you want to be very, very historically correct, but it’s become a part of so
many productions that it feels traditional. My understanding of the last act of
Makarova’s La Bayadere
is that John Lanchberry composed the music and she
did most of the choreography (I’ve never seen a tape of a Russian company that
concludes with anything but the “Kingdom of the Shades” scene), but the ballet
makes tons more dramatic sense with this act than without it. With this huge
qualification about “what counts as doing them properly,” I would agree. But
just as I feel an art that stifles innovation is inviting extinction, I think
one that is innovating to the extent of eliminating its classical base is
shooting itself in the (pointe-shoe-clad) foot. We
need to keep our heritage alive.
Amedeo Amodio's Carmen: can you tell me your opinion of
this re‑interpretation? In your review of a recent Ballet West’s Carmen
you write that the ballet "is an interesting approach to the story of the
fiery, independent Gypsy girl and the straight‑laced soldier who falls
for her." Then you explain: "Amodio begins
the ballet by taking us backstage after a stylized performance of the opera Carmen.
[…] The one thing I found weak in this clever approach is that this is the last
hint we have that anything has subsumed anyone. Unlike a production like Man
of La Mancha, where we are reminded from time to time that we are watching
real people play fictional characters, Carmen drops this dramatic ploy
after its initial use."
I said
pretty much what I had to say in the review. I think from the way it was
introduced to me, I was looking for something analogous to the “soliloquies” in
Spartacus where all four of the main characters had a similar depth of
character exploration, and this was definitely stronger with Carmen and Don
Jose. The weak point for me choreographically was the music that’s typically
the “bedroom” or “morning after” scene: I didn’t feel it benefitted from the
second duet. But I did like the overall idea of a scaled-down version that
focused on the four main characters as the dramatic pivots. There was some true
tour de force staging and dancing, as in the scene where Don Jose has been
jailed and the walls are closing in (I really liked the use of the minimalist,
multi-functional set I enjoy innovative tech work!)
Speaking of
narrative dance and of non‑reinterpreted classical ballets, how do you
think is the best way to approach dramatic roles such as Giselle and Albrecht
for a dancer?
I’ve talked
with Jonas Kåge a lot about this, as his (very valid)
approach to updating a classical ballet includes looking at the dramatic intent
and helping the dancers kind of get into the moment in terms of understanding
their characters and their motivations. This allows what could be a very dated,
effete-looking mime gesture to assume new life.
I think
it’s similar to building a character if you’re an actor. My favorite
dramatic ballerina from Ballet West, Maggie Wright, takes such care with
developing her character that I joke with her that she knows what size shoe the
character wore when she was six. But I think it’s similar to acting in a play
in that you should know your character well enough to establish an ongoing
internal monologue. Especially in the classics that involve a lot of mime to
move the story along, I think this approach really revitalizes a role and
brings it to life better for an audience. I think Jonas brings another
interesting and valid point to dramatic interpretation when he suggests that to
look at the Swan Lakes and the Giselles
as the woman’s ballet is a mistake. He said to me once that for every ballerina
you think of as having been a truly great Odette or Giselle or whoever, there
was an equally strong danseur portraying her counterpart and giving dramatic
weight to his role. So, although a Siegfried may only get his one variation and
tote the ballerina around the stage for 3/4 of the ballet, having him strongly
establish his character will work miracles for the quality of the overall
production.
I’ve seen a
big change in this area since I started writing in that 20 years ago, a lot of
the dancers hadn’t necessarily seen the ballets they’d been dancing in and did
not go out of their way to see other productions either live or on tape. (“Gee,
I heard I got a good part in our upcoming Sleeping Beauty someone
named Aurora?”) Now, to their credit, I see a lot more dancers of dramatic
ballets actively seeking out tapes of great ballerinas and danseurs of the
past, not to copy what they did to make them great, but to analyze why their
approach worked in those specific roles and to see how they can apply that to
their own performances. I think this is also an excellent (and important) tool.
Every company
performs both early 20th century works and classics every season. I have
noticed that for many reasons in Italy audiences are accustomed to the old more
than to the new; then there are people who consider it a must to go and see Swan
Lakes, Nutcrackers or Giselles performed
by famous dancers. Do you consider audiences' education in coming into contact
with modern works as a "compulsory" task?
Yes. I was
surprised to learn that this was not an exclusively American problem! When I
worked for the NEA that one summer, I spent a certain amount of time
speculating why this might be. For this area, where the influence of the Mormon
church is so strong, I feel there’s a pervasive feeling that to know something
about culture is good it’s acceptable and even worthwhile for you to know who
Bach was or to see a classical ballet like Swan Lake. But there’s
something that seems too impassioned about seeing every work of dance that
comes up the pike or actually being able to cite K. numbers for all of Mozart’s
work. People look at you funny when you do this, as if being truly impassioned
about something artistic is somehow not “nice.”
In this area,
we have the one large ballet company, Ballet West, and two professional modern
dance companies, Repertory Dance Theatre and the Ririe-Woodbury
Dance Company. Their audiences are as close to mutually exclusive (meaning the
modern dance audience vs. the ballet audience) as makes no odds, and I find
that tragic. Likewise, it seems to be a different sort of dancegoer
that will go to all of Ballet West’s productions, rep evenings as well as
full-lengths, as opposed to buying isolated tickets for the full-lengths. (And
not even the full-lengths are consistent; John Cranko’s
Taming of the Shrew did not do extremely well, but Balanchine’s Midsummer
Night’s Dream did, I think mainly because of the number of
kids in the cast people out here have huge families!) The one modern dance
thing that sold to the rafters was White Oak, because, of course, Baryshnikov
was with them. Sigh.
How to bust
through that mentality? I wish I had an answer; I’d be a millionaire! Ballet is
so much more than Nutcracker (and dance is so much more than strictly
classical ballet)!
Do you think
that a lukewarm critical reception of a new ballet may disappoint the
choreographer more than the dancers?
I think it
depends on who is doing the writing. It takes a good critic to be able to sort out
the vision of the choreographer from the performances of the dancers and to
quantify intelligently what is not working. My conscious choice as a critic is
to emphasize the good stuff, even if the good stuff in relation to the stuff
that doesn’t work is relatively small, and always to try to quantify (as
opposed to just ragging). No one likes to read bad things about his work, of
course! But there are so many critics out there who were thrust into the role
and haven’t a clue what they’re seeing or who confuse frank criticism with
critique that I think a lot of reviews need to be taken with the “consider the
source” attitude by both dancers and choreographers. Also, I know I’m in the
minority as a critic because I go out of my way to mention specific dancers
(and because the dancers do seem to think I know what I’m seeing when I write
about them). Because of this, I tend to think it’s a little harder on the
choreographer because criticism that doesn’t mention dancers by name will look
like it’s reflecting on the choreographer’s vision rather than on the execution
of the piece. (But all artists are sensitive and tend to reference things,
myself included!) Unfortunately, even what I’ve heard called the “hairball”
critics can have an impact because not all readers (and, obviously, not all
editors) can sort out the critics who know what they’re seeing and can discuss
it intelligently from the ones who don’t have a clue.